BBC presenter tells Woman’s Hour she quit as China editor after ‘botched’ offer to raise her pay to nearer that of male counterparts
The BBC presenter Carrie Gracie has said she could not collude in unlawful pay discrimination after resigning as the corporation’s China editor in protest at unequal remuneration.
In her first full interview since leaving the post, Gracie said she was offered a 33% pay increase but rejected it, claiming she wanted equality, not more money.
Speaking on Monday to BBC Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour, Gracie said: “I could not go back to China and collude knowingly in what I consider to be unlawful pay discrimination. Nor could I stay silent and watch the BBC perpetuate a failing pay structure by discriminating against women.”
BBC Radio 4 Today (@BBCr4today) "The support that I've had speaks to the depth of hunger for an equal, fair and transparent pay system."@BBCCarrie says she has been moved by the support for her resignation over gender pay row. More here 👉 https://t.co/pMJE08Hsoq#r4today pic.twitter.com/J1KuTF40kg
She confirmed that she first lodged an equal pay complaint in August last year after the BBC was forced to disclose the salaries of employees earning more than £150,000 a year.
In a letter to licence fee payers, Gracie said she was dismayed to discover the BBC’s two male international editors earned “at least 50% more” than their two female counterparts.
The North America editor, Jon Sopel, earned between £200,000 and £249,999, while the Middle East editor, Jeremy Bowen, earned between £150,000 and £199,999.
Gracie said: “My pay is £135,000. The BBC offered to raise that to £180,000, however I was not interested in more money, I was interested in equality. I didn’t feel it was a solution.
“I felt it was a divide-and-rule botched solution that would not make the BBC better … This was not equality; there was still a big gap between myself and my male peers.”
To circumvent BBC impartiality rules, Gracie was interviewed by the Guardian contributor and former media editor Jane Martinson. She was asked whether she wanted a pay cut for male journalists.
“I believe in public service broadcasting and I do think salaries at the top are unacceptably high both for presenters and stars of various kinds, and also for managers. But I don’t have the information to say this needs to happen … I do stand by what I say about the BBC being a secretive organisation on pay and I think it is very inappropriate,” she said.
Gracie said she had yet to hear the outcome of a grievance hearing held in November and had resigned in frustration. “The BBC said it hoped to have a grievance outcome before Christmas, but there is still no grievance outcome to this day. And I just decided enough was enough,” she said.
She also pointed out that her role was one of the most important and demanding at the BBC.
“It is very hard to continue to do the job of China editor, which I do see as one of the most difficult reporting jobs of our time. I chase around being surveilled the whole time and dealing with intimidation, dealing with police harassment … I speak Chinese, I have a degree in Chinese, I’ve been reporting the story for nearly 30 years. I just feel I work hard,” she said.
Within hours of her resignation, Gracie was sent messages of support from prominent broadcasters and politicians.
Despite being the subject of a news story, she took the unusual step of going ahead with a scheduled appearance as a presenter of the BBC’s Today programme on Radio 4.
She told the programme how much she had been moved by the support. Briefly interviewed by her co-presenter John Humphrys, whose £600,000-plus pay packet is at least four times more than hers, Gracie said: “The support that I’ve had in the last few hours over this … does speak to the depth of hunger for an equal, fair and transparent pay system.
“What is lovely for me is that people are mentioning my China work, because I would not wish to be remembered for ever as the woman who complained about money.”
Humphrys interrupted her to say “too late, too late”, before going on to praise his colleague’s stint as China editor.
Gracie said: “I want to be remembered as the person who did some fine China work, and enough people are saying that for me to feel that will not get buried as a result of all this.”
Sarah Montague, the least well-paid of the regular Today programme presenters, was one of 130 broadcasters and producers to sign a message of support for Gracie’s protest.
Sarah Montague (@Sarah_Montague) Statement from #bbcwomen in support of @BBCCarrie #EqualPay #IStandWithCarrie pic.twitter.com/tueh1aCW8W
It urged the BBC to “urgently address pay inequality across the corporation” and pointed out that 200 women at the BBC had made pay complaints.
A number of politicians voiced their support, including the Scottish first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, the shadow work and pensions secretary, Debbie Abrahams, and the former deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman.
Nicola Sturgeon (@NicolaSturgeon) This @BBCCarrie letter is a must read. All respect to her. https://t.co/9CvZrsyWLR
The Labour peer Lord Foulkes, who demanded that Gracie reveal how much she was paid during a live interview about MPs’ pay in 2009, said he agreed with her campaign for parity.
A BBC spokesman said: “Fairness in pay is vital. A significant number of organisations have now published their gender pay figures, showing that we are performing considerably better than many and are well below the national average.
“Alongside that, we have already conducted an independent judge-led audit of pay for rank-and-file staff which showed no systemic discrimination against women.
“A separate report for on-air staff will be published in the not too distant future.”
Dear BBC audience
My name is Carrie Gracie and I have been a BBC journalist for three decades. With great regret, I have left my post as China editor to speak out publicly on a crisis of trust at the BBC.
The BBC belongs to you, the licence fee payer. I believe you have a right to know that it is breaking equality law and resisting pressure for a fair and transparent pay structure.
In thirty years at the BBC, I have never sought to make myself the story and never publicly criticised the organisation I love. I am not asking for more money. I believe I am very well paid already – especially as someone working for a publicly funded organisation. I simply want the BBC to abide by the law and value men and women equally.
On pay, the BBC is not living up to its stated values of trust, honesty and accountability. Salary disclosures the BBC was forced to make six months ago revealed not only unacceptably high pay for top presenters and managers but also an indefensible pay gap between men and women doing equal work. These revelations damaged the trust of BBC staff. For the first time, women saw hard evidence of what they’d long suspected, that they are not being valued equally.
Many have since sought pay equality through internal negotiation but managers still deny there is a problem. This bunker mentality is likely to end in a disastrous legal defeat for the BBC and an exodus of female talent at every level.
Mine is just one story of inequality among many, but I hope it will help you understand why I feel obliged to speak out.
I am a China specialist, fluent in Mandarin and with nearly three decades of reporting the story. Four years ago, the BBC urged me to take the newly created post of China editor.
I knew the job would demand sacrifices and resilience. I would have to work 5,000 miles from my teenage children, and in a heavily censored one-party state I would face surveillance, police harassment and official intimidation.
I accepted the challenges while stressing to my bosses that I must be paid equally with my male peers. Like many other BBC women, I had long suspected that I was routinely paid less, and at this point in my career, I was determined not to let it happen again. Believing that I had secured pay parity with men in equivalent roles, I set off for Beijing.
In the past four years, the BBC has had four international editors – two men and two women. The Equality Act 2010 states that men and women doing equal work must receive equal pay. But last July I learned that in the previous financial year, the two men earned at least 50% more than the two women.
Despite the BBC’s public insistence that my appointment demonstrated its commitment to gender equality, and despite my own insistence that equality was a condition of taking up the post, my managers had yet again judged that women’s work was worth much less than men’s.
My bewilderment turned to dismay when I heard the BBC complain of being forced to make these pay disclosures. Without them, I and many other BBC women would never have learned the truth.
I told my bosses the only acceptable resolution would be for all the international editors to be paid the same amount. The right amount would be for them to decide, and I made clear I wasn’t seeking a pay rise, just equal pay. Instead the BBC offered me a big pay rise which remained far short of equality. It said there were differences between roles which justified the pay gap, but it has refused to explain these differences. Since turning down an unequal pay rise, I have been subjected to a dismayingly incompetent and undermining grievance process which still has no outcome.
Enough is enough. The rise of China is one of the biggest stories of our time and one of the hardest to tell. I cannot do it justice while battling my bosses and a byzantine complaints process. Last week I left my role as China editor and will now return to my former post in the TV newsroom where I expect to be paid equally.
For BBC women this is not just a matter of one year’s salary or two. Taking into account disadvantageous contracts and pension entitlements, it is a gulf that will last a lifetime. Many of the women affected are not highly paid “stars” but hard-working producers on modest salaries. Often women from ethnic minorities suffer wider pay gaps than the rest.
This is not the gender pay gap that the BBC admits to. It is not men earning more because they do more of the jobs which pay better. It is men earning more in the same jobs or jobs of equal value. It is pay discrimination and it is illegal.
On learning the shocking scale of inequality last July, BBC women began to come together to tackle the culture of secrecy that helps perpetuate it. We shared our pay details and asked male colleagues to do the same.
Meanwhile the BBC conducted various reviews. The outgoing director of news said last month, “We did a full equal pay audit which showed there is equal pay across the BBC.” But this was not a full audit. It excluded the women with the biggest pay gaps. The BBC has now begun a ‘talent review’ but the women affected have no confidence in it. Up to two hundred BBC women have made pay complaints only to be told repeatedly there is no pay discrimination at the BBC. Can we all be wrong? I no longer trust our management to give an honest answer.
In fact, the only BBC women who can be sure they do not suffer pay discrimination are senior managers whose salaries are published. For example, we have a new, female, director of news who did not have to fight to earn the same as her male predecessor because his £340 000 salary was published and so was hers. Elsewhere, pay secrecy makes BBC women as vulnerable as they are in many other workplaces.
How to put things right?
The BBC must admit the problem, apologise and set in place an equal, fair and transparent pay structure. To avoid wasting your licence fee on an unwinnable court fight against female staff, the BBC should immediately agree to independent arbitration to settle individual cases.
Patience and good will are running out. In the six months since July’s revelations, the BBC has attempted a botched solution based on divide and rule. It has offered some women pay ‘revisions’ which do not guarantee equality, while locking down other women in a protracted complaints process.
We have felt trapped. Speaking out carries the risk of disciplinary measures or even dismissal; litigation can destroy careers and be financially ruinous. What’s more the BBC often settles cases out of court and demands non-disclosure agreements, a habit unworthy of an organisation committed to truth, and one which does nothing to resolve the systemic problem.
None of this is an indictment of individual managers. I am grateful for their personal support and for their editorial integrity in the face of censorship pressure in China. But for far too long, a secretive and illegal BBC pay culture has inflicted dishonourable choices on those who enforce it. This must change.
Meanwhile we are by no means the only workplace with hidden pay discrimination and the pressure for transparency is only growing. I hope rival news organisations will not use this letter as a stick with which to beat the BBC, but instead reflect on their own equality issues.
It is painful to leave my China post abruptly and to say goodbye to the team in the BBC’s Beijing bureau. But most of them are brilliant young women. I don’t want their generation to have to fight this battle in the future because my generation failed to win it now.
To women of any age in any workplace who are confronting pay discrimination, I wish you the solidarity of a strong sisterhood and the support of male colleagues.
It is a century since women first won the right to vote in Britain. Let us honour that brave generation by making this the year we win equal pay.
Carrie Gracie
The BBC's China editor Carrie Gracie has resigned from her post, citing pay inequality with male colleagues.
In an open letter, Ms Gracie - who has been at the BBC for more than 30 years - accused the corporation of having a "secretive and illegal pay culture".
She said the BBC was facing a "crisis of trust", after it was revealed two-thirds of its stars earning more than £150,000 were male.
The BBC said there was "no systemic discrimination against women".
Ms Gracie said she left her role as editor of the corporation's Beijing bureau last week, but would remain with the BBC.
She said she would return to her former post in the TV newsroom "where I expect to be paid equally".
Ms Gracie is co-presenting BBC Radio 4's Today programme on Monday.
In the letter, posted on her blog, Ms Gracie - a China specialist who is fluent in Mandarin - said "the BBC belongs to you, the licence fee payer.
"I believe you have a right to know that it is breaking equality law and resisting pressure for a fair and transparent pay structure."
In July last year, the BBC was forced to reveal the salaries of all employees earning more than £150,000 a year.
Ms Gracie said she was dismayed to discover the BBC's two male international editors earned "at least 50% more" than its two female counterparts.
US editor Jon Sopel earned £200,000-£249,999, it was revealed, while Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen earned £150,000-£199,999.
Ms Gracie was not on the list, meaning her salary was less than £150,000.
A letter calling for equal pay - published in the Telegraph - was later signed by both Ms Gracie and BBC Europe editor, Katya Adler.
Equal pay
In her open letter, Ms Gracie said: "The Equality Act 2010 states that men and women doing equal work must receive equal pay.
"But last July I learned that in the previous financial year, the two men earned at least 50% more than the two women.
"Despite the BBC's public insistence that my appointment demonstrated its commitment to gender equality, and despite my own insistence that equality was a condition of taking up the post, my managers had yet again judged that women's work was worth much less than men's."
Media playback is unsupported on your device Media caption Carrie Gracie returned to Beijing in 2014 after several years' absence
Ms Gracie said she asked for the four international editors to be paid equally.
"Instead the BBC offered me a big pay rise which remained far short of equality," she added.
"I believe I am very well paid already - especially as someone working for a publicly funded organisation.
"I simply want the BBC to abide by the law and value men and women equally."
She said "patience and good will are running out" among female staff.
Industry support
BBC media editor Amol Rajan said Ms Gracie's resignation was a "big, big headache" for the corporation.
Michelle Stanistreet, general secretary of the National Union of Journalists, said it was "no surprise" that Ms Gracie was not prepared to stay silent about the "scourge of unequal pay" at the BBC.
"[The letter] makes it clear what a difficult decision it has been to speak out about what she calls a crisis of trust at the BBC, but why it is vital that the British public are clear about why she has been forced to resign her post."
On Twitter, many people, including BBC journalists, have expressed support for Ms Gracie using the hashtag #IStandWithCarrie, echoing the #BBCWomen hashtag that was prominent last summer.
'No systemic discrimination'
In a statement, a BBC spokeswoman said "fairness in pay" at the corporation "is vital".
"A significant number of organisations have now published their gender pay figures showing that we are performing considerably better than many and are well below the national average.
"Alongside that, we have already conducted a independent judge led audit of pay for rank and file staff which showed 'no systemic discrimination against women'.
"A separate report for on air staff will be published in the not too distant future."
Last year, a report published by the BBC found there was a 10.7% gender pay gap in favour of men when the mean average hourly pay rates were compared.
Director general Lord Hall pledged to close the gap by 2020, saying the corporation should be "an exemplar of what can be achieved when it comes to pay, fairness, gender and representation".
Media playback is unsupported on your device Media caption Carrie Gracie explains why she resigned as the BBC's China editor
Carrie Gracie has said she resigned as the BBC's China editor because she could not "collude" in a policy of "unlawful pay discrimination".
She quit, citing pay inequality with male international editors earning more than her £135,000-a-year salary.
She said she had refused a £45,000 rise as it still left a "big gap" between her and her male counterparts when all she wanted was to be "made equal".
The BBC has pledged to close the gender pay gap by 2020.
BBC broadcasters including Mishal Husain, Lyse Doucet, Clare Balding, Emily Maitlis and Sarah Montague voiced their support for Ms Gracie; while Channel 4 News presenter Cathy Newman, and Labour MPs Harriet Harman and Jess Phillips and Conservative MP Nadine Dorries have also reacted positively to the move.
The BBC's Europe editor Katya Adler, tweeted: "Huge loss to BBC international news. I will miss @bbccarrie by my side as only other female editor in foreign news."
Many expressed their support using the hashtag #IStandWithCarrie.
Meanwhile, a tweet by #BBCWomen, a group of more than 130 broadcasters and producers at the corporation, is being widely shared.
Neither Ms Gracie, nor Ms Adler appeared on a list issued by the BBC last July, listing the salaries of all employees earning more than £150,000 a year.
The US editor, Jon Sopel, earned £200,000-£249,999, while Middle East editor Jeremy Bowen earned £150,000-£199,999 - in Ms Gracie's words, "at least 50% more" than herself and Ms Adler.
Ms Gracie told Woman's Hour on Radio 4 the BBC had offered to raise her annual salary to £180,000, but she did not see that as a solution and there would still have been "a big gap between myself and my male peers".
Asked whether those male workers should receive a pay cut, Ms Gracie said: "I believe in public service broadcasting and I do think salaries at the top are unacceptably high... but I don't have the information to say this needs to happen or that should happen."
She added: "I could not go back to China and collude knowingly in what I consider to be unlawful pay discrimination. I could not do it, nor could I stay silent and watch the BBC perpetuate a failing pay structure by discriminating against women."
Earlier, co-presenting the Today programme with John Humphrys, Ms Gracie said: "The support I have had in the last few hours over this, I think it does speak to the depth of hunger for an equal, fair and transparent pay system."
How Chinese media see the row
Influential media in China have given prominent attention to Carrie Gracie's resignation as China editor, but have made no comment on her work.
Global Times and China Daily highlighted her statement that women at the BBC are generally paid significantly less than men, and broadcaster CCTV shares a picture of Ms Gracie from her Twitter page holding an #equalpayday sign.
Some social media users on the popular Sina Weibo praise her for speaking out and say they "support" her.
"We need to be treated equally!" says one user, receiving hundreds of likes.
Some say that men and women are paid the same in China, and one blames "capitalism" on her pay.
Other users give damning comments on articles she has written that they perceive to be anti-China.
Source: BBC Monitoring
In an open letter issued on Sunday, Ms Gracie - who has been at the BBC for more than 30 years - accused the corporation of having a "secretive and illegal pay culture".
She said she would return to her former post in the TV newsroom in London "where I expect to be paid equally".
In the letter, posted on her blog, Ms Gracie - a China specialist who is fluent in Mandarin - said licence fee payers had "a right to know" the organisation was "breaking equality law and resisting pressure for a fair and transparent pay structure".
"Despite the BBC's public insistence that my appointment demonstrated its commitment to gender equality, and despite my own insistence that equality was a condition of taking up the post, my managers had yet again judged that women's work was worth much less than men's."
She said "patience and goodwill" among female staff was running out.
Skip Twitter post by @jessphillips Heres my suggestion. I'll pay 50% less of my licence fee. I love and would die in ditch for the BBC but this isn't the gender pay gap even, this is equal pay issue and it's illegal to pay her less than men doing equivalent work. SORT IT OUT https://t.co/5FU0YDodOt — Jess Phillips (@jessphillips) January 7, 2018 Report
Media playback is unsupported on your device Media caption Journalist Mariella Frostrup tells Today the gender pay situation hasn't improved in her lifetime
In a statement, a BBC spokeswoman said "fairness in pay" was "vital" and the corporation would improve transparency on how pay is set.
There have been three investigations into gender pay:
A report was published in October, in line with a requirement on all large organisations. It found the gender pay gap at the BBC was 9.3%, against a national average of 18.1%
A judge-led audit of equal pay among rank-and-file staff found there was "no question of any systemic gender discrimination"
A review into the BBC's approach to the pay of on-air presenters, editors and correspondents is still being carried out and will be published "in the not too distant future"
Arriving at the Golden Globes ceremony in Los Angeles, actress Emma Watson said the BBC's commitment to equal pay was "great... but we need to see them fulfil it".
"What has happened with the resignation is a really good example. You have got to follow through. You have to back up what you are saying."
